Hihat - dynamic chick - firmware testing

Discussions related to MegaDrum Hardware

Re: Hihat - problem w/ dynamic chick

Postby gabriel1712 » Sun May 10, 2009 1:43 pm

dmitri wrote:
gabriel1712 wrote:I have a challenge for you:
Take two trash can lids.
a) Smash them together and keep them firmly together (chick)
b) Smash them together, quickly pull them apart and let them ring out (splash)
c) Smash them together, pull them parrallel apart and try to make them go chick+splash before the cows come in ;)

I didn't quite get the option c.


Thats a little unfortunate, since that's how MD Pedal operates today. Heheh ;P

In other words; clap your hands once and try to make two sounds.
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby dmitri » Sun May 10, 2009 2:11 pm

Ok, seriously since it will effect the firmware. There should only be either the option a or b and the option c is evil. Right?
dmitri
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8654
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:05 pm

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby gabriel1712 » Sun May 10, 2009 2:19 pm

dmitri wrote:Ok, seriously since it will effect the firmware. There should only be either the option a or b and the option c is evil. Right?

Yes, please.
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby dmitri » Tue May 12, 2009 11:01 pm

I've just posted a new firmware which addresses chick/splash handling.
dmitri
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8654
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:05 pm

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby gabriel1712 » Tue May 12, 2009 11:58 pm

I gave it a quick spin without touching my current config. Good work, Dmitri! It now behaves like an acustic hat.

I gotta turn in now, but I'm really looking forward to give it a solid run tomorrow night.
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby gabriel1712 » Thu May 14, 2009 12:21 am

I'm away the next few days. I'll test it this weekend.
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby gabriel1712 » Tue May 19, 2009 7:12 pm

In general, I think the MD hihat is truely excellent with just the chick/splash needing a tune up. I understand the principles of the new MD hihat option and hardcoding, but don’t know all the details and conditions. Therefore I think the best approach is to unfold my thought on acoustic hihats and compare it to what I see, testing MD.

ACOUSTIC HIHATS

Image
This is where the bottom cymbal of a hihat rest. Note the hihat tilt-bolt. It’s there to make sure the bottom cymbal is tilted. If the hihat cymbals were perfectly aligned, a compressed airpocket would prevent the chick and instead return a ‘pop’. It also creates a gradual transition from tiedly closed to fully open.

The acoustic tilt-bolt is in MD simulated very well by the ClosedLvl and OpenLvl settings.

This is the acoustic chicks/splash options:

Open(>OpenLvl)
Image
Start position for foot: Heel down toes up or Heel up, foot jump
Possible Chick velocity level: 1-127

½ open (<OpenLvl)
ImageImage
Start position: Heel down , foot light upwards
Possible Chick velocity level: 1-64

¼ Open(>CloseLvl)
ImageImage
Start position: Heel down, foot relaxed (note the cymbals are together but they can move when hit)
Possible Chick velocity level: 0

Closed(<CloseLvl)
Image
Foot position: Toes down, heel up


TESTING 20090517 v32_16_32
My hihat test setup:
Pedal: F.contr
Curve: Log1 (I tried diffent curves but didn’t notice an output diffence between them at all.)
ChckDelay: 0
AltIn: No
CC: 4
LvlAuto: No
LowLvl: 31
HiLvl: 260 (the most stable gap, beyond it spammed CC. mess.)
OpenLvl: 8
ClosedLvl: 110
ShrtChckTh: 115
LngChckTh:16
HHInput: 2
ChickNote: 37
SplashNote: 38

The test itself will follow shortly (too big for one post)
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby gabriel1712 » Tue May 19, 2009 7:30 pm

Problem: Even relative moderate chicks (speed) produce near 127 velocity.

Observation: In general, the velocity return seems too high. See below for data. I’ve applied several curves, Log1, S2 and Exp2. The difference is marginal to none.

Suggestion: Based on speed tests using MIDI-OX and my sense of how an acoustic hihat would respond, this is my guideline to a speed index:

Slow 100ms = Velocity 1-10 – Heel down, foot barely able to break eggshells. Hardly audible chicks above 100 ms. (Current firmware 250 ms = velocity 12)
Medium 40-45 ms = velocity 50-70 - Heel down just using the weight of the foot. (Current firmware 100 ms = velocity 54)
High 1-5 ms = velocity 100-127 – Heel up, max power (Current firmware 28 ms = velocity 123)
I believe it can be hardcoded since there’s no user preference involved. The question is how would an acoustic hihat respond to X speed.

Image
To try the speed test, set ChckDelay:0, calculate the timestampe difference stepping down. This is the 100 ms = velocity 54

Importance: Pretty high. The return level brutally kills any sensitive chick play.


Problem: Heel down, closing at medium to high speed makes a ghost note appear before the actual chick. See picture.

Observation: It looks like the CC closing stream from 1-127 gets interrupted midway. If I do shortchick the return is velocity 26-28, which is exactly what the 2nd value is.
Image
The1st value is velocity 127, so it really looks like max longchick and max shortchick is generate together.

It’s not hard to trigger consistently, as you can see here.
Image

ChckDelay is here set to 15 to pull a splash (note 38). 37 is the valid chick and 38 is the noisy friend arriving superloud and before the valid chick. If ChckDelay is set higher than 0 the midway ghost trigger is a splash (like the note 38 in this picture). If ChckDelay is 0, the ghost trigger is a chick (note 37 in my setup).

Suggestion: No clue. It may just be my pedal acting up, thou I don’t think so. I had some issue like this with 20090512 too, but not even near the extent it is now.

Importance: Crucial.
It’s as bad as having the old simultaneously chick+splash issue back. Just with the order reversed splash+chick.


Problem: Heel down, medium to slow speed often doesn’t produce chicks.

Observation: In this picture you see two medium speed chick fail.
Image
It seems the pedal has to be fully closed to make a chick/splash. That makes it quite hard to do a natural soft chick with heel down, as heel down by definition only close a hihat to the ¼-open position.

Suggestion: Acoustic Chick/splash is not just trigger by the hihat being closed completly, but from ½- open and down. On MD ¼-open and ½- open is already defined by CloseLvl (1/4-open) and OpenLvl (1/2-open). A true simulation would graduate the velocity return, from 100% return at the ¼-open mark to 1% return at the ½-open mark.

Importance: High but not crucial. It would add an unpresidented realism to e-hats.
"the woods are lovely, dark and deep
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go before I sleep..."
gabriel1712
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:16 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby dmitri » Tue May 19, 2009 8:59 pm

gabriel1712 wrote:Problem: Even relative moderate chicks (speed) produce near 127 velocity.

Observation: In general, the velocity return seems too high. See below for data. I’ve applied several curves, Log1, S2 and Exp2. The difference is marginal to none.

The curve is applied to CC mesages, not to the chicks/splashes.

Suggestion: Based on speed tests using MIDI-OX and my sense of how an acoustic hihat would respond, this is my guideline to a speed index:

Slow 100ms = Velocity 1-10 – Heel down, foot barely able to break eggshells. Hardly audible chicks above 100 ms. (Current firmware 250 ms = velocity 12)
Medium 40-45 ms = velocity 50-70 - Heel down just using the weight of the foot. (Current firmware 100 ms = velocity 54)
High 1-5 ms = velocity 100-127 – Heel up, max power (Current firmware 28 ms = velocity 123)

I will look into it and will make required changes.

I believe it can be hardcoded since there’s no user preference involved. The question is how would an acoustic hihat respond to X speed.

Image
To try the speed test, set ChckDelay:0, calculate the timestampe difference stepping down. This is the 100 ms = velocity 54

Importance: Pretty high. The return level brutally kills any sensitive chick play.


Problem: Heel down, closing at medium to high speed makes a ghost note appear before the actual chick. See picture.

Observation: It looks like the CC closing stream from 1-127 gets interrupted midway. If I do shortchick the return is velocity 26-28, which is exactly what the 2nd value is.
Image
The1st value is velocity 127, so it really looks like max longchick and max shortchick is generate together.

Judging from the CC messages both chicks are caused by the change of the pedal position. In the first instance the change from open to closed is less than 10ms hence high chick velocity, in the second instance the pedal seems to bounce up above the shortchick level and then goes down again.

It’s not hard to trigger consistently, as you can see here.
Image

ChckDelay is here set to 15 to pull a splash (note 38). 37 is the valid chick and 38 is the noisy friend arriving superloud and before the valid chick. If ChckDelay is set higher than 0 the midway ghost trigger is a splash (like the note 38 in this picture). If ChckDelay is 0, the ghost trigger is a chick (note 37 in my setup).

Suggestion: No clue. It may just be my pedal acting up, thou I don’t think so. I had some issue like this with 20090512 too, but not even near the extent it is now.
Importance: Crucial.
It’s as bad as having the old simultaneously chick+splash issue back. Just with the order reversed splash+chick.

Cannot reproduce it. With my optical HH controller I get strictly either only chick or only splash and never both.



Problem: Heel down, medium to slow speed often doesn’t produce chicks.

Observation: In this picture you see two medium speed chick fail.
Image
It seems the pedal has to be fully closed to make a chick/splash. That makes it quite hard to do a natural soft chick with heel down, as heel down by definition only close a hihat to the ¼-open position.

Suggestion: Acoustic Chick/splash is not just trigger by the hihat being closed completly, but from ½- open and down. On MD ¼-open and ½- open is already defined by CloseLvl (1/4-open) and OpenLvl (1/2-open). A true simulation would graduate the velocity return, from 100% return at the ¼-open mark to 1% return at the ½-open mark.

Importance: High but not crucial. It would add an unpresidented realism to e-hats.

I see your point and will look into it.
dmitri
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8654
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:05 pm

Re: Hihat - dynamic chick - EDIT: firmware 20090504 test

Postby dmitri » Tue May 19, 2009 10:13 pm

Please, test this version:
megadrum32_16_32_20090519.syx


I tried to address the first issue only in it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dmitri
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8654
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:05 pm

PreviousNext

Return to MegaDrum Hardware

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 98 guests

cron