Roland CY-14c Xtalk: Hits to edge triggers bow peizo

[mdefiore]

Hi.

Like I did with the KD-120, I'm trying to set up a Roland cy-14c with the MD such that I get the same responsiveness I get playing it with the TD-30. This time, I won't ask if it is possible, since the KD-120 (with Dmitri's help) was able to play excellently on the MD (as good or better than the TD-30).

With the Roland cy-14c, I can't get good sensitivity on the bow without a rim hit triggering a bow hit. Tried setting this up from scratch, and also tried using the settings for the cy-15r (which I also have but have not set up yet) on angr77's site as a baseline.

1) Tried adjusting threshold on the 3rd zone: did not help.
2) Tried raising threshold of the bow, and adjusting the gain on the bow and also did not help: reduces sensitivity to bow hits too much.
3) Tried adjusting DynLevel and DynTime on bow: did not help.
4) Tried pad on Input4 and Input 6: did not help
5) Tried 3rd Zone Threshold=0,75,150,230: none helped

AutoHighLevel procedure generates:

Bow HighLevel=315
Rim HighLevel=509

Bow settings:
Threshold=10
Gain=6
HighLevel-315
Retrigger Mask: 15
DynLevel=15
DynTime=60
MinScan=20

Edge settings:
Threshold=11
Gain=4
HighLevel-509
Retrigger Mask=15
DynLevel=6
DynTime=32
Minscan=20

3rd zone settings:
Tried Threshold=0,75,150,230: none helped

Scope readings:

Bow:


Edge:


Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike

[angr77]

Hi!
I have never heard about the model 14R....maybe you mean 13R...or is a 14C?

Reason for asking....
14C = piezo/switch
13r = piezo/switch/switch

If is it is a 14c, you could try the settings for CY-8 in my library.

Just looking on your settings...I would raise the threshold for the bow to about 20-25.

Would you like to share your KD-120 settings? I would love to add them to my library!

Best Regards

Angr77

[mdefiore]

Hi!
I have never heard about the model 14R....maybe you mean 13R...or is a 14C?

Reason for asking....
14C = piezo/switch
13r = piezo/switch/switch

If is it is a 14c, you could try the settings for CY-8 in my library.

Just looking on your settings...I would raise the threshold for the bow to about 20-25.

Would you like to share your KD-120 settings? I would love to add them to my library!

Best Regards

Angr77

Hi Angr,

Sorry about that: I had "cy-15r" on the brain. Yes, the cymbal I'm having trouble with is the CY-14c.

My plan was to give you all the settings for every pad in my entire Roland TD-10 session kit once I had them it all set up. These include the KD-120, PD-120, PD-100, CY-15r, CY-14c, VH-13, CY-12h.

So far I have the PD-120, KD-120, and PD-100 configured. Great thing about the PD-120 on the MD is—for some reason—the hot spot problem is gone: not sure why. The PD-120 had a bad hot spot problem on the TD-10 and the TD-30 (although, you could dial it out *almost* completely with the compression and scan settings on the TD-30). On the MD the hot spot is gone.

Tried to configure the CY-14c with baseline settings from the CY-5 and CY-8 files on your site: still has poor sensitivity on the bow, and lowering threshold of the bow so I can get good sensitivity allows edge hits to trigger the bow piezo.

On the TD-30, you can allow the stick to bounce on the bow and you would hear every hit except for, perhaps, the last one or two: that's how sensitive the bow is. Even with this level of sensitivity, edge hits, no matter how hard or soft, fast or slow, don't trigger the bow piezo.

On the MD, you can allow the stick to bounce on the bow and you would hear every hit except for, perhaps, the last seven or eight: nowhere near as sensitive as the TD-30. Setting the Threshold lower, even to 20 or 25 (which still gives poor sensitivity compared with the TD-30) allows edge hits to trigger the bow piezo.

Threshold=5 gives comparable sensitivity to the TD-30, but easily allows an edge hit to trigger the bow piezo.

[angr77]

Great to hear!

Yes, the dead spot issues are complete cleared with the MD...I had the same type of experience with my TD-6...but moving to MD long time ago it just disappeared....and I forgot about it! Dmitri new feature:MD - the dead spot killer!

I was once chasing after the light hits experienced on my CY-8 on the TD-6...when doing the bouncing on the cymbal. Dmitri and I came up with the ideas to raise the level compression to 2or 3 and the level shift to about 16-24. It will increase the hits according to an algorithm and the lightest hits will be updated to at least 20 in midi value. I don't know if this would help you...but you can try and you will realize how advanced MD is...

Another thing is to play around with the gain and threshold...they are connected to each other. If you raise the gain...the threshold can be lowered/increased and vice versa.
I would also try the crosstalk settings, I don't know if it is the proper way to do it...placing the bow / edge in the same xtalk group and go from the standard xtalk suppression level on 4 to 6-7 and see what happens...

I would also raise he minscan on the bow to 30- 40 on the bow.


Best regards

Angr77

[mdefiore]

Great to hear!

Yes, the dead spot issues are complete cleared with the MD...I had the same type of experience with my TD-6...but moving to MD long time ago it just disappeared....and I forgot about it! Dmitri new feature:MD - the dead spot killer!

I was once chasing after the light hits experienced on my CY-8 on the TD-6...when doing the bouncing on the cymbal. Dmitri and I came up with the ideas to raise the level compression to 2or 3 and the level shift to about 16-24. It will increase the hits according to an algorithm and the lightest hits will be updated to at least 20 in midi value. I don't know if this would help you...but you can try and you will realize how advanced MD is...

Another thing is to play around with the gain and threshold...they are connected to each other. If you raise the gain...the threshold can be lowered/increased and vice versa.
I would also try the crosstalk settings, I don't know if it is the proper way to do it...placing the bow / edge in the same xtalk group and go from the standard xtalk suppression level on 4 to 6-7 and see what happens...

I would also raise he minscan on the bow to 30- 40 on the bow.


Best regards

Angr77

Thanks Angr77.

Getting the MD to recognize light bow hits is easy: lowering bow threshold does this. But, when threshold is lowered the bow also picks up edge hits. My problem is that the bow threshold on the MD needs to be raised so high (to prevent edge hits triggering the bow piezo) that I loose a lot of sensitivity on the bow.

I'm unclear on how compression and level shit will help the MD register light hits. Compression and level shift are implemented after the MD registers a hit—if the MD can not register light bow hits because bow threshold needs to be set high (so the bow won't register edge hits), then the compression and level shift algorithm won't be implemented by the MD.

As you suggested:

1) I put bow and edge on same xtalk channel and raised xtalk level to 7: did not help.
2) I raised bow gain to 6 and lowered bow threshold to 13: did not help. These settings produced decent sensitivity, but the bow now registers edge hits (sometime...especially on rolls).
3) Tried different 3rd zone threshold settings again (o and 150): did not help.
4) Tried different combinations of compression and level shit: did not help

MD bow sensitivity is as good as the TD-30 when bow threshold on the MD is set to about 6 (with gain settings as I wrote in my original post): however, this setting makes the cymbal unusable because the edge hits will trigger the bow.

[dmitri]

On a piezo/switch(/switch) pads/cymbals HighLevel on the rim/edge must be pretty much equal to HighLevel on on the head/bow.

Set DynTime and DynLevel on both the bow and the edge to the maximum levels. Still bow triggering when hitting the edge?

[mdefiore]

On a piezo/switch(/switch) pads/cymbals HighLevel on the rim/edge must be pretty much equal to HighLevel on on the head/bow.

Set DynTime and DynLevel on both the bow and the edge to the maximum levels. Still bow triggering when hitting the edge?

I set both bow and edge to: gain=5, HighLevel=504, DynLevel=15, Dyntime=60: no change.

[dmitri]

1. Post a screenshot of settings on the cymbal.
2. Post a screenshot of MIDI Log showing a hit on bow.
3. Post a screenshot of MIDI Log showing a hit on the edge.

[mdefiore]

1. Post a screenshot of settings on the cymbal.
2. Post a screenshot of MIDI Log showing a hit on bow.
3. Post a screenshot of MIDI Log showing a hit on the edge.

Cymbal settings:


Midi hits bow:

various patterns:

1.407 10 0x99 0x1b 0x40 D# 1 Note On

0.193 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.021 10 0x99 0x1b 0x41 D# 1 Note On

0.199 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.025 10 0x99 0x1b 0x42 D# 1 Note On

0.195 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.028 10 0x99 0x1b 0x37 D# 1 Note On

0.117 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x34 D# 1 Note On

0.194 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.015 10 0x99 0x1b 0x4f D# 1 Note On

0.195 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.032 10 0x99 0x1b 0x38 D# 1 Note On

0.132 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x3f D# 1 Note On

0.196 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.027 10 0x99 0x1b 0x37 D# 1 Note On

0.193 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.019 10 0x99 0x1b 0x45 D# 1 Note On

0.191 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.029 10 0x99 0x1b 0x47 D# 1 Note On

0.190 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.028 10 0x99 0x1b 0x49 D# 1 Note On

0.191 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.030 10 0x99 0x1b 0x41 D# 1 Note On

0.139 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x4e D# 1 Note On

0.190 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

single stroke roll bow:

2.254 10 0x99 0x1b 0x44 D# 1 Note On

0.181 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x29 D# 1 Note On

0.103 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x2b D# 1 Note On

0.092 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x26 D# 1 Note On

0.113 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x1b D# 1 Note On

0.073 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.002 10 0x99 0x1b 0x2c D# 1 Note On

0.115 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x21 D# 1 Note On

0.077 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x30 D# 1 Note On

0.169 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x2a D# 1 Note On

0.127 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x20 D# 1 Note On

0.064 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x29 D# 1 Note On

0.113 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x21 D# 1 Note On

0.079 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x1f D# 1 Note On

0.104 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x25 D# 1 Note On

0.107 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x37 D# 1 Note On

0.199 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off


Midi hits edge:

Various hits:

0.029 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

1.398 10 0x99 0x04 0x5a E -1 Note On

0.191 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.042 10 0x99 0x04 0x40 E -1 Note On

0.139 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x2b E -1 Note On

0.135 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x67 E -1 Note On

0.193 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.027 10 0x99 0x04 0x3d E -1 Note On

0.132 10 0x99 0x1b 0x29 D# 1 Note On

0.060 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.106 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.043 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x15 D# 1 Note On

0.153 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.060 10 0x99 0x04 0x7e E -1 Note On

0.137 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.060 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.032 10 0x99 0x04 0x61 E -1 Note On

0.142 10 0x99 0x1b 0x0a D# 1 Note On

0.055 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.140 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.014 10 0x99 0x04 0x42 E -1 Note On

0.195 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.031 10 0x99 0x04 0x35 E -1 Note On

0.144 10 0x99 0x1b 0x0a D# 1 Note On

0.055 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.062 10 0x99 0x04 0x7a E -1 Note On

0.078 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.120 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.025 10 0x99 0x04 0x21 E -1 Note On

0.129 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x59 E -1 Note On

0.195 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.004 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.020 10 0x99 0x04 0x2e E -1 Note On

0.176 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.020 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.028 10 0x99 0x04 0x5a E -1 Note On

0.178 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.013 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.039 10 0x99 0x04 0x59 E -1 Note On

0.123 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x12 E -1 Note On

0.017 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.120 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.059 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.021 10 0x99 0x04 0x2b E -1 Note On

0.118 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.080 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.020 10 0x99 0x04 0x3f E -1 Note On

0.199 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.039 10 0x99 0x04 0x62 E -1 Note On

0.191 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.044 10 0x99 0x04 0x33 E -1 Note On

0.130 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x6f E -1 Note On

0.195 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.001 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.198 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

(sloppy) single stroke roll on edge:
8.948 10 0x99 0x04 0x7f E -1 Note On

0.169 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x66 E -1 Note On

0.116 10 0x99 0x1b 0x0d D# 1 Note On

0.072 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x78 E -1 Note On

0.092 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x44 D# 1 Note On

0.089 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x19 D# 1 Note On

0.009 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.084 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x12 D# 1 Note On

0.071 10 0x99 0x04 0x31 E -1 Note On

0.096 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x43 E -1 Note On

0.027 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.050 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x68 E -1 Note On

0.084 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x2e E -1 Note On

0.098 10 0x99 0x1b 0x19 D# 1 Note On

0.082 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x2a E -1 Note On

0.074 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x28 E -1 Note On

0.037 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.072 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x3c E -1 Note On

0.077 10 0x99 0x1b 0x13 D# 1 Note On

0.093 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x3b E -1 Note On

0.071 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x59 E -1 Note On

0.024 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.075 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x4f E -1 Note On

0.083 10 0x99 0x1b 0x2b D# 1 Note On

0.100 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x0f D# 1 Note On

0.009 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.069 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x0d D# 1 Note On

0.073 10 0x99 0x04 0x45 E -1 Note On

0.082 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x1b 0x35 D# 1 Note On

0.089 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.000 10 0x99 0x04 0x7f E -1 Note On

0.104 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

0.090 10 0x99 0x04 0x00 E -1 Note Off

0.002 10 0x99 0x1b 0x01 D# 1 Note On

0.198 10 0x99 0x1b 0x00 D# 1 Note Off

[dmitri]

1. MinScan on the bow and the edge should be set equal.
2. If Alt or Pressroll are not used they must be set equal Note.
3. Light hits on the edge are very likely not to 'make' the edge switch and therefore will be registered as bow hits.
4. The Threshold on the bow seems to be set to low, i.e. too sensitive and as a result "after hit" vibration with too low Threshold on the bow will likely cause false bow triggering.